In 1981 the British punk band The Clash wrote what would be their only single to reach Number 1 on the charts. Should I stay or Should I Go? is about a strained relationship, and it reflects how some in the SBC are feeling toward the Convention. Is there a reason to stay? Is there a legit reason to leave?
Here are some of the lyrics.
Darling you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?One day is fine, next is black
So if you want me off your back
Well come on and let me know
Should I Stay or should I go?Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
An’ if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me knowThis indecision’s bugging me
If you don’t want me, set me free
Exactly who’m I’m supposed to be
Don’t you know which clothes even fit me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?
People have been asking me if Grace will always be a Southern Baptist Church. Even a few of our members have asked if there would ever be a time when we might pull out and work with another network of churches. In fact, at the TFTG Conference a church planter asked me, “Are you die-hard committed to the SBC?” I believe my immediate response was, “I am die-hard committed to Jesus.” He said, “Of course…” and I responded with, “No, that is the point.”
Some argue that we are married to the Convention and should never break away. Others have lost hope and already jumped ship to work with others. I believe that breaking ties with the SBC is a real option. I believe it has to be an option because churches follow the Shepherd, not a missions program. I do not have plans on leaving the Convention, though we are watching and working and waiting to see what the next few years will bring.
When would we leave the SBC? When the Convention gets in the way of our work; when the SBC is working against our goals, vision, and theology. When it is clear that the values of the Kingdom are not the values of those we are united with, then we will break fellowship. This may happen. Our Convention can be derailed as fundamentalism chokes the missional life out of our work, or even as people who want change distract us from the most critical issues by focusing on political tug of war.
Here the thing: I honestly believe reformation will come to the SBC. This week I will lay out how I think God will do this; or at least, how I think God can do it. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts as well.
I’m looking forward to more, Joe. Thoughtful post and great cultural reference. :)
That IS the point. Right on.
these are good thoughts. its sad that we even have to have a conversation centered around this. it should have never have gotten to this point.
my two cents.
denominations or “networking” structures should provide a couple of things.
1) accountability
2) the ability to do together what you can’t do by yourself
3) and networking and resourcing
lets take a look
1) accountability – the circle keeps being drawn closer and closer in. tighter and tigher. and accountability, in my opinion, should be primarily about practice and theology. currently, both are struggling. the denomination is keeping churches and pastors accountable but for all the wrong things. and its kind of a cycle. where the majority of churches and pastors are in this perpetual mode of forcing each other into what is safe for both of them. the denominational leaders and church leaders keep jockeying for what works best for them and helps them get more of what they’re looking for. i have my thoughts about what that is.
2) the denomination doesn’t help me do this much anymore. not with all of the new structures and outlets that alllow it. they usually just end up being a waste of resources because of falling back to traditional methods and practices.
3) resources continue to get wasted. plane trips. hotel rooms. nice meals. golf games. libraries. meanwhile, africa is starving. these are the same questions i wrestle with myself daily. so its not that i’m saying i’m any better at managing resources.
those 3 things were the reason i initially involved myself with denominational structures. those 3 things being practiced faithfully is what will keep me here.
really looking forward to the rest of your thoughts.
I should point out the guy I was talking to shares my perspective on this.
Joe,
The revival of the “withdraw from public schools” resolution as the Convention nears has me asking the same questions you are. Can I continue to associate myself with a denomination that would take such an anti-missional stance? As the definition of Southern Baptist is rewritten to be more and more narrow, is there still room for me?
I look forward to reading your continued thoughts on these things. Please know that you aren’t alone.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to go look for a job…
Hey guys. I think part of the problem is that many of the younger leaders are overreacting to some (smaller, but real) problems while ignoring others. Talk about a resolution concerning homeschooling/withdrawl from public school may be frustrating to some, but it will mean very little in the end. (I am very pro home schooling, not to avoid culture, but provide better education than most of our public schools offer). It is only a resolution. Besides, the Convention will never pass a resolution calling for the withdrawl of children from public schools when the vast majority of our children are in public schools. Never happen. Anyway, I have some problems like that with the Convention that are real, but not critical. I will use a few that have even recently effected our church in the next post. Essential is identifying the most critical problems, and putting our energy there to bring about the best change in the best way. Steve McCoy has been saying the same thing, and we are both working to better express our ideas for staying in the Convention. In general, I am not excited about most of the chatter among younger leaders concerning the upcoming Convention.
Wow. Just as I am beginning to wonder if there is room for me in the EFCA and start looking over the fence at SBC, it turns out there is crab grass in that lawn too.
I have been so impressed with SBTS over the last year or so, I guess I projected it on to all of the SBC. Rose colored glasses.
I’m looking forward to what you have to say Joe. I’m hoping to church plant after seminary (if that is my calling and my gifts are aligned with that) and SBC was/is a possibility if EFCA gets too picky and weird. I’d like to hear about the good and bad from someone on the inside.
Never say never, Joe. Over the last 20+ years I have heard a lot of statements come out of the SBC that I never believed I would hear. In conversations with friends, I often heard and perhaps uttered the words, “never happen”. The resolution about an exit strategy from public schools is more than a frustrating issue to many. It may be just a resolution, but it will be one of the major points the media will pick up and carry from Greensboro. It is just another example of many in the SBC wanting to distance Southern Baptists from the secular culture. The message the people on the outside hear is this: We do not want to associate with you. It doesn’t matter how many times we say we love them, they do not believe it, and they never will as long as we continue to mark out areas of “darkness” and decide we don’t want to go there. I have no problem with homeschooling or private Christian schools. However, I think to go that direction with one’s children is a decision that individual parents can make very well on their own without some kind of sweeping resolution that is an insult to Christian administrators, teachers, and students as well as to all the lost children that we appear to be willing to abandon to darkness. I know this isn’t directly in response to your point in this post, but the issue did come up, and I felt I wanted to respond to it–hope that’s okay.
Yeah, that’s fine Cate. I still don’t think the Resolution will ever pass, not as it is. And if it does, it demonstrates a problem in the Convention that goes beyond the resolution. It’s not big secret that our Convention is fearful and antagonistic toward the culture. This is something I hate, and hope to see change over time.
I’m looking forward to your take on things Joe.
I teach theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I sincerely pray that many, indeed most of you emerging/missional/reformed churches (you guys can try to bring me up to speed on the lingo) do stay in the SBC. Here’s why. I suspect that your generation of pastors, missionaries and other christian leaders bring something authentic to Southern Baptists that we really need. Much that I read from and about your generation gives me renewed hope for the SBC. For one thing you seem reformed but not angry. You seem committed to doctrine and the planting of missional churches but also wary of unspiritual holy huddles that sometimes characterize reformed groups. You seem to be happy calvinists, not five pointers with fangs. I like that. I wish more of you had been around when I was younger.
I do think you list of potential prompters to your departure from the SBC are good ones. I hope you will be patient and notice how difficult, given our structure, it would be for the SBC to disrupt your own agenda. That is a good thing.
I thank God for the many Bible believing Baptists who stuck it out for a long time in order to restore our denominatin to some measure of biblical and doctrinal soundness.
Take note of the nature of some of the fruit of the spirit. Patience, longsuffering. Think of the Lord’s prayer. It seems that in the Body of Christ it is to be expected that we will have frequent occasion to forgive each other and need forgiveness. Our Lord expected that we would have to bear up under the burden of putting up with one another. Like in a big family. Don’t leave too soon. I think we need you and staying in a big family of folks holding the Bible high is not all bad.
Mark, thanks for taking the time to speak to us and encourage us. Believe me, though I think there are legit reasons to leave a Convention, I am not planning a departure from ours. I think change will come.
Mark, You are much too humble.
You should have said, “I am the author of a recent B&H book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, showing what contributions this man can make to Evangelicals.”
As I expect you might affirm, Scott, this certainly fits what little I know of Professor Devine’s character, though. I remember meeting him at an ETS meeting (I believe the regional meeting in Mobile, Alabama) years ago and I was struck by his humble spirit. I haven’t read his book, but I look forward to doing so.
I honestly had not come across the book until last night, but it now is on my reading list.
I asked the question…and the response I had was fed with the presupposition that the SBC may be in antithetical to Jesus on points. So the “Of course…” had to do with the fact that we are not ultimately committed to a convention, but to the Christ. I did appreciate your bluntness and I would happier if more men were as direct and certain as you were in your response…
Matthew,
It was great hanging out. Our conversation was great and I hope we can meet again some time.
I haven’t met Mark yet, but I reviewed the book for our state paper, and he gave me a web-interview to follow-up on the book. Graciousness describes the man.
http://gilford.textdrive.com/~winston/?p=65
Thanks Scott. I’ll check out your interview tonight.
I’m just interested in reading what a “reformed” SBC will look like? I guess this is all confusing for me. I come from a different religous background and thank God for the SBC; warts and all.
I bet that most people who have come from other denominations feel the same way as I do. I mean, what is it that you guys want? You don’t like certain resolutions, Ignore them!
Reform your heart and your church first before you try to reform a whole denomination. If it becomes too much for you, go out and start your own better and perfect non-denominational denomination.
Rick,
It is clear that you have stumbled in here without reading much of my stuff. Read my most recent post for a pic of what I want from the convention. You will see that I am hopeful for greater cooperation with and support for all who fit under the umbrella of our confession.
I can get past your tone, but your words themselves are a bit much for me when you say, “Reform your heart and your church first before you try to reform a whole denomination. If it becomes too much for you, go out and start your own better and perfect non-denominational denomination.”
Reforming heart and church is what I am arguing for as the primary thing to work on. Try reading this to see more of where I am coming from. I am certainly not expecting everyone to share all of my theological convictions, rather, I am simply asking that we use our confession appropriately and not exclude Baptists who embrace it.
Let me assure you, the vast majority of our leaders will admit that there s a need for “reformation” in the SBC. What kind of reformation is the question to be asking.
Keep up the work in Peru man.
I don’t want to pull the post off-topic by coming back to the homeschooling resolution thing–but I just had a few observations and I think I can tie it back in to the topic at hand. First of all, for the sake of full disclosure, I am a homeschooling parent. I agree with Joe, completely, that this resolution doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in a very hot place of passing. But I see nothing wrong with raising the issue and addressing the question of how we are to raise our children in such a way that best ensures they grow up with a Christ-centered mindset. Reasonable people can disagree on this topic but that doesn’t mean it isn’t crucial for it to be thoroughly examined and discussed. How we raise children is, ultimately, a personal issue but it is not a missions issue. Children can be homeschooled without withdrawing them entirely from the world. And Christians can have a missional presence in and influence on kids in the public school system without sending their children there during the most formidable and impressionable years of their lives.
Whether or not to I stay in an SBC church will not be determined by whether or not I agree with a resolution presented regarding personal decisions (drinking, education, finances, etc..) If I understand that at the root of discussing and passing resolutions on ‘disputable matters’ is a genuine desire to honor God and help the Body of Christ—and not just an attempt to cater to some faction or appease the culture–then I can remain regardless of whether or not I agree with the resolution. Resolutions like this are not binding on the individual or on SBC churches are but simply represent a general consensus of opinion among the leaders as to what they believe to be the best course of action to achieve the goals of Christ (in this case, raising Godly children).
Correction: In my post I said ‘general consensus of opinion’ but since a resolution is passed by voting, it would be more accurate to say ‘majority opinion’.
Debra,
Good words and I agree. Though I would say how we raise our children is a missional matter. It just isn’t done in one way (public education, or home schooling). We have a couple familes at our church who home school, and we plan on doing the same the Lord allows. I think a family can follow Christ in either scenario. Again, thanks for contributing to the discussion. Good stuff.
I definitely agree with you that how we raise our children is a missional matter. I guess what I was trying to say is that I disagree with the argument, made by some, that we should place our children in public schools in order for them to be missionaries to their unsaved classmates. (Some children, especially teens, could indeed take on that role, but they would be the exceptions not the rule.) This is a noble and good intention but experience has shown that this is not only, generally, ineffective but very risky. And I disagree that homeschooling always equals abandoning either our schools or the world.
And also I agree with you that there is no one, right way to educate our children. It is probably for the best that resolutions, such as the one encouraging the withdrawal from government schools, not pass. But I think it is very important that people be encouraged to make thoughtful, prayerful, informed choices with regards to how they educate and raise their children and consider the issues and options. Resolutions force discussion and debate and so serve a purpose even if they aren’t passed. To get back to your point, though–that is why resolutions, whether they pass or not don’t bother me and are not likely to be a make or break issue for me in a decision as to whether or not to remain in the SBC fold.
I just discovered your blog–there is much here I need to read! I’ve pretty much decided to stay put in this denomination in which I was raised (but left for many years) but I am really encouraged by the questioning and calls for change that I am reading about on blogs like yours. Many thanks!